Still thinking...
About love...
I think there is this nutty thing, where 30-ish women suddenly become afraid they'll never get married. I know a lot of women like this. I know more 30-ish women like this than 30-ish women NOT like this.
It makes me groan.
Months back I had a fight with a friend at work. We were both trying to advise a younger woman about how to proceed after a first date. My co-worker suggested all that "Wait two days before calling" bullshit. "Don't tell him you love him until he tells you." "Act nonchalant."
All defenses. All manipulations designed to keep rejection to a minimum. But it's just like gambling in Vegas. If you're hanging at the roulette wheel, and you only play black or red, you'll never win anything worth taking home. The night I got married (literally), I put 30 bucks on number 9 and hubby and I went home winners.
True story.
I think men like women who like themselves. I think men like women with the confidence to say what they think/mean. I think men fall in love with immediacy and urgency. Not all men, but the good ones (for me), anyway.
My advice to the younger co-worker?
"Like, call him right now and say 'Hey we had a lot of fun last night. Want to take the rest of the day off work with me, right this minute, and go bowling or something? Maybe we could grab some tacos too! I just can't wait to see you again!'"
Because what could happen? He could get freaked by the immediacy and honesty... in which case he's a coward or he can't handle a real human being... in which case you're WAY better off knowing now...
I always say I love you. I always give lots of presents. I always lean in for the kiss first. Maybe I'm an idiot, but I just don't see the point in wasting time.
You know that thing (I'm sure it has a name or a philosopher to go with it, but I forget) about believing in God?
If you believe in God, and God exists, you win. If you believe in God and God doesn't exist, no difference. If you don't believe and God doesn't exist, no difference. But if you don't believe and God does exist?
Hoo-EEE, boy!
I feel like that about honesty and immediacy in love.
If you fall for Joe, and prematurely tell him you dig the shit out of him, and he bolts, he's an asshole and it's better not to get too attached anyway.
If you fall for Joe and you tell him, and he digs you too? Fireworks! Trust! Love!
If you fall for Joe and you don't tell him? Either you find yourself 6 months into a relationship, waiting for him to say "I love you" first, resenting him and fearing rejection now that you've invested six months of your life...
Or, he assumes you don't really dig him and goes looking for someone who really does...
Either, way... you don't feel honest and open and trusting.
Either way, you've missed your shot at magic.
Just once in my life I played it "safe." The guy I liked had told me up front that he "Wasn't in a place where he could make promises", because he was planning to move to Texas. I thought I could change his mind. Whenever pushed, he told me he loved me. We had a "great time" drinking and dancing and traveling. I could see no reason why he wouldn't "come around."
It took me years to get over it. Not to get over him, but to get over ME. To get over having become someone who didn't trust myself. Having become someone willing to let another person dictate the size of my emotion, depth of my relationship. The damage was done NOT by his inability to give 100%, but by my own defense mechanisms. I shrank in my own estimations. I let myself matter less than he mattered to us both. In the end I couldn't forgive him, so that even once he was actually ready to "give" I couldn't be fully invested. I was broken. I didn't believe in love anymore.
So as far as I'm concerned, the only way to start out right is to start out open and willing and honest and ready to be rejected.
But I'm me and you're you. If you have a story about playing the love game with "games" and winning a real and lasting relationship built on trust, I want to hear it.
And btw... "games" and "courtship" are two different things. I'm all for waiting a year to fuck. I'm all for sending flowers. When I say "games" I mean operating out of fear of rejection. I mean trying to coerce the other person into letting you be in charge.
Because... who the fuck wants to be in charge? That isn't what a relationship is about...
I say, forget the games and enjoy the courtship. But mostly, be HONEST! You could die tomorrow... you want to spend your last day on earth playing games, or loving?
Pretend you're 89 and in a nursing home, with a crush on Howie in room 6B. Are you gonna wait until after Howie strokes out again to tell him you think you love him? Are you gonna worry that Howie might turn you down?
Or are you gonna wrap your bony-ass arms around his stretchy-wrinkly neck, climb into his Hoverround with him and say, "Howie, you are the sweetest sexiest WWII veteran in this joint and I want to spend my last days just staring into your cloudy eyes. Now, let's go find a utility room and do the things teenagers dream about."
You better.
I think there is this nutty thing, where 30-ish women suddenly become afraid they'll never get married. I know a lot of women like this. I know more 30-ish women like this than 30-ish women NOT like this.
It makes me groan.
Months back I had a fight with a friend at work. We were both trying to advise a younger woman about how to proceed after a first date. My co-worker suggested all that "Wait two days before calling" bullshit. "Don't tell him you love him until he tells you." "Act nonchalant."
All defenses. All manipulations designed to keep rejection to a minimum. But it's just like gambling in Vegas. If you're hanging at the roulette wheel, and you only play black or red, you'll never win anything worth taking home. The night I got married (literally), I put 30 bucks on number 9 and hubby and I went home winners.
True story.
I think men like women who like themselves. I think men like women with the confidence to say what they think/mean. I think men fall in love with immediacy and urgency. Not all men, but the good ones (for me), anyway.
My advice to the younger co-worker?
"Like, call him right now and say 'Hey we had a lot of fun last night. Want to take the rest of the day off work with me, right this minute, and go bowling or something? Maybe we could grab some tacos too! I just can't wait to see you again!'"
Because what could happen? He could get freaked by the immediacy and honesty... in which case he's a coward or he can't handle a real human being... in which case you're WAY better off knowing now...
I always say I love you. I always give lots of presents. I always lean in for the kiss first. Maybe I'm an idiot, but I just don't see the point in wasting time.
You know that thing (I'm sure it has a name or a philosopher to go with it, but I forget) about believing in God?
If you believe in God, and God exists, you win. If you believe in God and God doesn't exist, no difference. If you don't believe and God doesn't exist, no difference. But if you don't believe and God does exist?
Hoo-EEE, boy!
I feel like that about honesty and immediacy in love.
If you fall for Joe, and prematurely tell him you dig the shit out of him, and he bolts, he's an asshole and it's better not to get too attached anyway.
If you fall for Joe and you tell him, and he digs you too? Fireworks! Trust! Love!
If you fall for Joe and you don't tell him? Either you find yourself 6 months into a relationship, waiting for him to say "I love you" first, resenting him and fearing rejection now that you've invested six months of your life...
Or, he assumes you don't really dig him and goes looking for someone who really does...
Either, way... you don't feel honest and open and trusting.
Either way, you've missed your shot at magic.
Just once in my life I played it "safe." The guy I liked had told me up front that he "Wasn't in a place where he could make promises", because he was planning to move to Texas. I thought I could change his mind. Whenever pushed, he told me he loved me. We had a "great time" drinking and dancing and traveling. I could see no reason why he wouldn't "come around."
It took me years to get over it. Not to get over him, but to get over ME. To get over having become someone who didn't trust myself. Having become someone willing to let another person dictate the size of my emotion, depth of my relationship. The damage was done NOT by his inability to give 100%, but by my own defense mechanisms. I shrank in my own estimations. I let myself matter less than he mattered to us both. In the end I couldn't forgive him, so that even once he was actually ready to "give" I couldn't be fully invested. I was broken. I didn't believe in love anymore.
So as far as I'm concerned, the only way to start out right is to start out open and willing and honest and ready to be rejected.
But I'm me and you're you. If you have a story about playing the love game with "games" and winning a real and lasting relationship built on trust, I want to hear it.
And btw... "games" and "courtship" are two different things. I'm all for waiting a year to fuck. I'm all for sending flowers. When I say "games" I mean operating out of fear of rejection. I mean trying to coerce the other person into letting you be in charge.
Because... who the fuck wants to be in charge? That isn't what a relationship is about...
I say, forget the games and enjoy the courtship. But mostly, be HONEST! You could die tomorrow... you want to spend your last day on earth playing games, or loving?
Pretend you're 89 and in a nursing home, with a crush on Howie in room 6B. Are you gonna wait until after Howie strokes out again to tell him you think you love him? Are you gonna worry that Howie might turn you down?
Or are you gonna wrap your bony-ass arms around his stretchy-wrinkly neck, climb into his Hoverround with him and say, "Howie, you are the sweetest sexiest WWII veteran in this joint and I want to spend my last days just staring into your cloudy eyes. Now, let's go find a utility room and do the things teenagers dream about."
You better.
10 Comments:
Good points all, Laurel. Sometimes guys do get freaked out, but, this would only be the case if the connection wasn't there at all. Even if minorly interested, call the next day, be honest, etc., all just like you said.
But also, can we address the opposite: what about a nice guy being too eager?
And, another "but also": I've met more women than not in their mid-20s (say 24-29) who have given me the line: "I had a nice time, but I'm not looking for a relationship right now. I just want to be on my own." Then, as you put it, something hits when they turn 30 and all of a sudden they're worried about being alone? Can someone explain? I've lost a love or two, missed a few opportunities with really fantastic women due to this phenomenon that they seem to stick to no matter what great and honorable man presents himself.
I agree completely. If women think while they're playing the "wait two days to call" game, the guy isn't sitting around thinking, "damn it, why hasn't she called?" they're nuts. And as you said, if he's not thinking that, then it's best to find out now.
Ultimately, people who think this way have only one problem, but luckily for them a problem that presents its own solution: they haven't watched Harold & Maude enough.
I'm in that 24-29 category that kind of can react the way Michael says here....
I think Laurel is the best "big sister" ever, tho. :)
I spent two years (that's a long time for a grad student!) in a relationship like you described, Laurel, just kind of trying to get up the gumption to care that he was reliable, relatively sane, etc. Maybe reliable and relatively sane aren't for me....
Love, Laura
Laurel,
I agree with the whole carpe diem bit in theory, but in practice I'm such a scaredy cat.
Anyway, I did jump, feet first, into something about six months ago and it ended last week and it hurt horribly, and I'm glad I jumped in because there was a lot of good there despite what happened.
And I've noticed, too, this 30 year old woman thing. I've never been a man to whom women have been the least bit attracted. Suddenly, however, in the past couple of years, I've been getting a lot more attention from 30ish women. I wouldn't have been good enough for them when they were 25, but as soon as they hit 30 (or 29) I start to look pretty all right.
or in the words of Paul Simon: "She looked me over and I guess she thought I was all right. / All right in a sort of a limited way for an off night."
Tony
Of course. That's my problem. I'm reliable and relatively sane.
Sigh.
Ahh...the magic of the 30 goggles...much like beer goggles, except that they take longer to develop....but last longer....
Don't women reach their sexual peak around that age? And while that is happening...isn't it harder to find decent mating partners? No school/social scene...tired of bars...don't want to meet people there anyway....
I remember walking home from the El stop in Chicago one day....walked past a group of three women...all around 30ish sitting on their front porch...It was a strange reverse construction guy whistle type experience....
30 goggles? I didn't get goggles but I sure started to sweat alot. Seriously, I sweat like a minister and it's not like I am any larger than I was when I was 28. If I had goggles they'd be fogged up right now.
Laurel, may I say your blog is becoming one of the more provocative stops on my morning web itinerary? Thank you for being so fucking candid...and Jewish.
And look: don't get me wrong: I can completely respect someone just wanting to be on their own -- I feel that way more often than not -- but if I met a really fantastic woman, why wouldn't I want to try and give it a shot? I'm confused by those types -- men and women -- who will stick to a so-called "plan" no matter what.
Pascal's Gambit / Wager
On Pascal's Wager, you wrote: "If you believe in God, and God exists, you win."
Well, believing in Him is not quite the same as living the way He wants. (Not to say that I know what He wants.) But believing in Him and not living right could put you in that dreaded "Hoo-eee Boy!" category.
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